Can We Engineer a Perfect World Tyler VanderWeele & Steven Pinker

URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/4c255389-5cb0-4f7a-9fb1-e9dd5fe3a411

Chad Hudson's AI podcast notes from Can we engineer a perfect world? | Tyler VanderWeele & Steven Pinker

The Flawed Nature of Humanity and its Connection to Religion
Key takeaways:

• There are themes in religions, including Christianity, that reflect distilled human insight.
• One of the themes is that humans are flawed creatures.
• Any social organization has to take into account humans' capacity for nasty goals.
• Humans have the capacity to do awful things, but also have the better angels of our nature.
• There is such a thing as human nature, which aligns with some themes in Christianity.
• Humans are not blank slates and cannot be perfected.
  Transcript:
  Speaker 1
  No for a couple of reasons. One of them is, even though I don't think that as a Jewish atheist, I'm going to leave Jesus out of it, so I don't think that that is part of an agenda for flourishing. But there are themes in religions, including Christianity, that reflect distilled human insight. And one of them is that we are flawed creatures. The way I would put it is that we're products of evolution, but we're not angels, and that any social organization has to take into account the capacity of humans toward rather nasty Goals, including raw exploitation, as we see in slavery, sadism, the thirst for revenge, the ability that we all have to cultivate sadism, malevolent ideologies such as Putinism, The romantic authoritarian nationalism that puts the glory of empires and civilizations above the flourishing of men, women, and children. We have the capacity to do awful things, but we also have what Abraham Lincoln called the better angels of our nature. I believe that there is such a thing as human nature, and that is harmonious with some of the themes in Christianity. I don't think we are blank slates. I don't think we can be perfected. (Time 0:10:26)

Expanding Empathy and the Paradox of Utopia
Key takeaways:

• The circle of empathy can be expanded through cosmopolitanism and understanding the experiences of people unlike oneself.
• Progress is possible through the development of institutions and norms that bring out our capacity for self-control, empathy, and reason.
• Different cultures have varying ideas of utopia based on individual and cultural values.
  Transcript:
  Speaker 1
  But the circle of empathy can be expanded outward by processes of cosmopolitanism, meeting people who are unlike you, reading the first person experiences of people unlike you, just Realizing rationally, cognitively, that other people have the capacity to flourish and suffer as you do, and that it is incoherent to wish for yourself what you would not grant to others. And what has changed over time, the reason that progress is possible, is that we develop institutions and norms that are likely to bring out our better angels, our capacity for self-control, Our capacity for empathy, our capacity for reason. The reason that I think it's not a paradox or contradiction to note that utopian movements have led to de facto dystopias and nightmares is that different dimensions of human flourishing, For one thing, vary across individuals and certainly across cultures. So for one culture, a vision of utopia might be one of modesty that women are clad from head to toe for another it would be freedom and women can wear whatever they want. Or one might be sobriety and restraint, for another it might be partying and celebrating and getting drunk. Any utopian vision that is enforced or indeed any attempt to implement one's own utopian vision will naturally (Time 0:12:03)

The Trade-offs of Human Freedom and Flourishing
Key takeaways:

• The problem with human freedom is that it allows people to make choices that can negatively impact their lives in the long term
• Striving for perfection in people's choices would require limiting their freedom through measures like social media regulation and prohibition
• There are trade-offs between freedom and flourishing, as they represent different dimensions of human existence
• Perfect freedom leads to inequality as individuals have varying talents and temperaments
• Restricting freedom is necessary to achieve absolute equality of resources
• The human condition involves inherent trade-offs and finding the optimal balance is subject to debate
  Transcript:
  Speaker 1
  The problem with human freedom is people can have the freedom to screw up their lives. They can spend too much time on social media to their long-term detriment. They can drink too much. They can eat too much. They can not exercise enough. If we were to achieve perfection in terms of people only doing things that were good for them in the long run, then we would need the social media police and we'd need the junk food Gestapo And we'd need prohibition. So freedom and flourishing can trade-off. There are two different dimensions of freedom. There is no optimum that would maximize one unless it came at the expense of the other. Another one is since we're not all identical. We differ in our talents. We differ in our temperaments. If you have perfect freedom, you will also have inequality. Some people are more enterprising. Some people are harder working. Some people will start businesses that will make them billionaires. Others won't. If you want to prevent that from happening, if you want to make sure that everyone ends up with exactly the same resources, then you're going to have to squash human freedom. No, you can't start that business because then you'll get richer than someone else and that will be inequality. So there are inherent trade-offs in the human condition. We can argue about what's the optimal way of trading them off, but if we seek to make one of them perfect, we will necessarily minimize another. (Time 0:14:46)

The Subjective and Objective Components of Human Flourishing
Key takeaways:

• Flourishing has both a subjective and an objective component.
• Subjective experience and feeling are important aspects of flourishing.
• Objective factors like health, reasoning capacity, and spirituality contribute to human flourishing.
• Different perspectives exist on the spiritual aspect of human well-being.
  Transcript:
  Speaker 2
  Yeah, I mean, I think I'd offer two further comments, though I agree with a fair bit of what Steve said. First, I would say I do think flourishing has both a subjective and an objective component. If someone feels miserable, it's very odd to come to them and say, no, in fact, you are fully flourishing. No, I mean, that subjective experience, how we feel in life is not irrelevant. It's not the only part of flourishing, but ideally we want to be doing what's right and feeling what's right and acting in the right way. I mean, that subjective part of it is important. But I think there is an objective side to human flourishing as well. I think something like health or the capacity to reason and to understand. I think even if someone doesn't want these things, it would be odd. But no, this is part of what human nature is. I also believe that there is a spiritual aspect to the human person that is also part of our objective well-being. I need to appreciate the fact that others like my colleagues, Steve disagree and don't see it that way. (Time 0:20:08)

The Spiritual Aspect of Human Well-Being and the Importance of Communities
Key takeaways:

• There is a spiritual aspect to human well-being.
• Flourishing includes all aspects of a person's life.
• The quality of our communities affects our flourishing.
• Flourishing is a communal concept.
• Reason and science are important for progress, but may not be enough.
  Transcript:
  Speaker 2
  I also believe that there is a spiritual aspect to the human person that is also part of our objective well-being. I need to appreciate the fact that others like my colleagues, Steve disagree and don't see it that way. But to my mind, that is also part of the objective side of well-being. So while I don't think flourishing is just getting whatever we want subject to the constraints of other people, I do think the subjective component is important. I mean, I would also say that to my mind flourishing, living in a state in which all aspects of a person's life are good, that includes the environments and contexts in which they live, The communities in which they live. We are social, medical, communal creatures. And if our communities are not good, then I would say that that is actually a part of our lack of flourishing. And I think those sorts of notions can help orient us if we embrace them towards what is good, towards working together, towards not just trying to maximize our own happiness and desires, But seeing that flourishing as being truly communal. Thanks.
  Speaker 3
  All right. On to secular and Christian humanism. While reason and science are crucial for advancing society, it is worth considering whether we put too much faith in them to achieve progress. (Time 0:21:10)

The Nietzschean View and the Problem of Human Flourishing
Key takeaways:

• The Nietzschean view presupposes that only the Superman gets asked
• Humanism trumps religious doctrine because it is what we all share
• A deeply reflective tradition tends to discover insights about human nature
• Human flourishing cannot be based on a specific religious doctrine as it excludes certain groups
  Transcript:
  Speaker 1
  There is a Putin's view, exactly. But of course, you could ask Putin, but, you know, if you add, what about all those Ukrainians, don't they get a vote in this too? That's the problem with the Nietzschean view is that it already presupposes that it's only the Superman that gets asked. Now whether it comes from gospel, I would certainly not have, not the person to ask for lack of expertise. I would doubt it, although there could be, I do acknowledge, and I've already given an example of an insight from, I don't know if it's directly from the gospels, but it's sort of implicit In it that humans are flawed. They were not perfectible. We're not blank slates. And there are probably other insights about human nature that any deeply reflective tradition would tend to discover, because when you ponder humans, there are certain things that The conclusions that you'll come to. But I suspect that humanism, ultimately, trumps any particular religious doctrine simply because it is what we all share. That is, when you bring people together and say, well, what characterization of human flourishing can we all agree on? Well, it can't literally be, say, salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus, because then you're going to leave out the Hindus and you're going to leave out the Jews and you're going To leave out a lot of humanity. (Time 0:24:01)

The Evolution of Religion Towards Humanism
Key takeaways:

• There is a conception of flourishing and morality based on flourishing, called humanism.
• Religions have historically moved in the direction of humanism.
• The development of various religions has shown a shift towards humanism.
• Churches, mosques, and synagogues tend to move towards humanism and discard less humanistic aspects of their dogmas.
  Transcript:
  Speaker 1
  So there is a robust conception of flourishing and hence a morality based on flourishing, which I would call humanism. And I would dare say, and those of you who maybe are more expert in the history of religion than I am, could either support or refute it. But my suspicion is, my sense is that a lot of religions have been historically moving in a direction of humanism. If you look at the Ecumenical Council in Catholicism in the early 1960s, the so-called Vatican II, if you look at the development of, you know, in Judaism from the Torah, which is a pretty Bloodthirsty document to the Talmud, to, after the Jewish Enlightenment, to reform Judaism and humanistic Judaism and Reconstructionism. If you look at the evolution of Protestantism, if you look at the evolution of Mormonism, where there was a revelation in the 1960s that African Americans did not bear the mark of Cain After all, and they could have high positions in the Mormon church. Churches tend to, churches and mosques and synagogues and so on, I think tend to move in the direction of humanism, and tend to divest themselves of some of the more parochial and less Humanistic aspects of their dogmas and their catechism. (Time 0:27:23)

The Influence of Humanism on Churches and Mosques
Key takeaways:

• Churches and religious institutions tend to become more focused on humanism over time.
• There are pressures for churches to become more global, cosmopolitan, and humanistic.
• The term 'gospel' usually refers to the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in the Christian New Testament.
• The Christian gospel is about the good news that God loved the world and gave his son, Jesus, for everyone, including Hindus and Jews.
  Transcript:
  Speaker 1
  Churches tend to, churches and mosques and synagogues and so on, I think tend to move in the direction of humanism, and tend to divest themselves of some of the more parochial and less Humanistic aspects of their dogmas and their catechism. Not necessarily literally, but at least in practice in terms of what you actually abide by, even if you may pay lip service to your, your, your, your, your gospels, your, your scriptures. And I think there's a reason for that, and that is as the world becomes more united as we learn about some of the horrors of parochial sectarian ideologies, their pressures to go more Global, more cosmopolitan, more, more humanist. That's a speculation. Thanks.
  Speaker 3
  And I realize we want to avoid jargon here, and I realize the word gospel may not be interpreted the same way to everyone's. I probably should have clarified and feel free to disagree with me. The gospels usually refers to the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, four books of the new Christian New Testament. The gospel, I believe, is literally a translation of good news, translates as good news, which in the good news in the Christian faith is that God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, Jesus, to die for everyone. And that does not, I think you made a comment about that, leaves out Hindus, Jews or whatever. It actually doesn't. It's, it's for everybody. (Time 0:28:28)

Christianity's Contribution to Humanism: Love, Historical Contributions, and Community
Key takeaways:

• The distinctive contributions of Christianity towards humanism and flourishing can be seen in various aspects such as understanding equality of peoples, charity, and contributions to science.
• Religious organizations, including churches, play a significant role in providing healthcare in African countries.
• Participating in religious communities can have positive effects on health and well-being, reducing depression, suicide, mortality risk, and divorce.
• The centrality of love, particularly love of neighbor and God, is a fundamental principle in Christianity's understanding of morality and ethics.
  Transcript:
  Speaker 2
  And we should do whatever we can. I mean, with regard to the distinctive contributions of Christianity itself towards humanism, towards flourishing, I mean, one might point towards the historical contributions And contributions in terms of understanding the equality of peoples or charity or the contributions to science, one might point towards the proportion of healthcare in African countries That the churches, other religious organizations are providing, one might point to, and this is the topic of some of my own research, the contribution of participating in religious Community towards health and well-being, lowering depression, suicide, reducing mortality, risk and divorce and so on. But I mean, I think those are kind of more historical and empirical questions. In terms of Christianity's contribution to our understanding of humanism, of human flourishing, what could be said about that, I'll perhaps restrict my remarks to three things. I think first the centrality of love, the sort of basing, the encapsulating, the whole of morality, the whole of ethics, is essentially love of neighbor and of God and extending that So far as love of enemy as well in Jesus' teachings. (Time 0:32:09)

Episode AI notes

1. Religions like Christianity recognize human flaws and the potential for cruelty and exploitation, while also acknowledging the capacity for goodness.
2. Expanding empathy through cosmopolitanism and understanding different experiences is crucial for progress.
3. There are trade-offs between human freedom and flourishing, as well as between freedom and inequality.
4. Human flourishing has subjective and objective components, including health, reasoning, and spirituality.
5. Flourishing involves all aspects of a person's life, including their environment and community.
6. Churches and religious institutions tend to embrace humanism and discard parochial beliefs.
7. Christianity has made historical contributions to equality, charity, science, and healthcare in African countries.
8. Participating in religious communities can have positive effects on health and well-being.
9. Love is a central principle in Christianity's understanding of morality and ethics. (Time 0:00:00)